i am amazed that a doctor would administer that many drugs in so short a time span. i am also amazed that according to what the doctor says, that MJ seemed immune to all of these drugs. i have had troubles sleeping, but can't relate to that level of insomnia. sad, very sad.

HE IS A CARDIOLOGIST..............NO excuses. Of course, betcha Michael did NOT expect this kind of result. None of them ever do. Michael's frail body could NOT handle all of those extreme drugs all at once like that.

Valium alone should have put Micheal to sleep. He only weighed like 75 pounds. How much would it take to knock the man out? I'm surprised they didn't find high levels of cocaine in Micheal's system. How else could he stay awake after taking so many sedatives?

And why would this doctor keep injecting him with drug, after drug, after drug? Common sense would be screaming overdose by 3 AM. Amazing. This guy needs to go to jail.

Minimum, manslaughter. I just knew it. The way he ran and hid. This doctor was either a kwack or part of a conspiracy to have him killed. Was he worth more dead than alive? What a tragedy!

What kind of medical training did this doctor have? Most people with enough common sense and no medical training would think twice about combining all of these drugs at once, especially after reading the warnings on the box and the side effects it could produce, so I'm not sure what to think of this so-called "doctor," and his "qualifications."

Agreed Peter...Although a Murder charge would look good it'll more likely be manslaughter...

Wouldn't that be an accidental suicide or are they saying someone held him and shoved it down his throat??? Idiots!

Clearly MJ missed the whole '80's "just say NO to drugs" thing.

Dammit Micheal.....I'm a Cardiologist not an Anesthesiologist.

I agree that taking that many medications just to go to sleep was insane. Obviously, he had been taking powerful medications for this purpose for a long time to be so insensitive to them. Also, I wouldn't think a doctor would use so many drugs for a single night's sleep. I would have given up by 3 am and hope he was tired enough to sleep the next night. You can't have insomnia forever.....

How many times does this have to happen before the Medical community steps in and starts pulling the licenses of Doctor's who are willing to prescribe anything to celebrities who seemingly have endless supplies of cash?

Enough already. The AMA needs to step up to the plate and police itself. I would bet that this is not the first time this particular quack has been under suspicion for questionable Medical care, and I would also bet other Physician's knew about it, and did nothing.

Although Micheal Jackson and the Jackson family also bear some responsibility here as I cannot believe for one second that those who are so quick now to try and get control his his estate had no clue that their beloved cash cow was a hardcore drug addict; I am also pleased that an example is going to be made of this particular Doctor, so that other boutique Physicians will be aware that they are not above the law.

Prescription drug addicts are still drug addicts, and the Doctor's who enable them need to be prosecuted!!!

I don't see anything new in this....those with tons of money can get whatever they want to get...and the laws mean nothing to them...as with even our politicans...they can do whatever. The laws are only meant for those of us who actually have to work for a living....those with inflluence can get by with anything. Personally, I hope they throw the book at this so called doctor and be sure to take his medical lic. away for good..no matter what part of the USA this fool might end up in.

bsbfankaren -- Many of Jackson's friends knew he was a drug addict and begged him to stop. I wouldn't blame friends and family members for this.

I agree with you on that one!! That man should have known that a powerful drug like this should ONLY to be administered in the hospital!!! WOW! Michael went to sleep and never woke!! Just like Anna Nicole Smith and many other stars. Folks, you need to leave these fly-by-night- Doctors alone!!!

Did they try all this out first at the VA?

Huh??

Live by the sword, die by the sword........it is no surprise after twenty years of playing Russian roulette with pain killers and other dangerous drugs Jackson finally pulled the trigger of the chamber with the bullit in it. ...To me it looks more like assisted suicide than anything, Jackson himself deserves a share of the blame.

Not surprising at all. Seems like he had enough drugs in him to kill a horse. If Jackson had all of those and he's still tossing and turning, he's had some real sleep problems. Is it a drug interaction or just 1 drug too many? This is headed for the legal system now.

There is something about the human psyche....when your conscious is "plagued" by immeasurable "guilt & worry", the mind (that is "guilt-ridden")can not rest or be at peace, even with powerful drugs........Michael Jackson has not been at peace since his 20s..(evidently he was not as spiritual as he let on)

well..maybe now he finally can .....R.I.P..."MJ"

Yeah it was murder,,,, he killed himself, now let the rest of the world go about their business.

Suicide?? He administered the drugs...Mixed them and gave them to him....He knew better, and if he didn't then he shouldn't be giving drugs to anyone...

If this was any other person, it would've been assisted suicide....double standards for the wealthy and important people suck

Jackson was no victim, he was an accomplice, reckless endangerment should be the most servere charge against Dr. Murray

I have problems sleeping. However, if I had all them drugs in me, I would be taking a dirt nap also. I take a 10 mg. Ambein, 30 minutes later, I am staggering and hallucinating, 45 minutes later, I'm down for the count. What he had in his system for ONE NIGHT would last me for a year. Or longer.

Spot on Black Night. And it took him years to pull it off.

Mikey wanted to go to sleep. Mikey went to sleep. End of story.

This is the first that I heard about the doctor only being his personal doctor for "weeks". He said he was trying to get Michael off the drugs. If a rich idiot patient says give me more you give them more.

Laura,

Jermaine Jackson got on Larry King Live and made the statement that Micheal was not an addict, and that in fact Micheal was a health nut! That is why I think the family should share the blame!

Ellis Baumgarner
Jackson was no victim, he was an accomplice, reckless endangerment should be the most servere charge against Dr. Murray

Works for me, so long as Dr. Murray also loses his license!

Agree. Suicide. His poor kids - left with an unstable family.

WOW I JUST reveived my first AAPR solute! Meanwile my Mom's membership will go up! So why should I trust you?

Anyone know where the murder trial will be?

I'm thinking either CA or TX, and I want to be on the jury so I can write a book. And, having seen the film "The Runaway Jury," I know exactly how to get on one now.

Good God! Jackson's tolerance for sedatives must have been off the charts and half way to Mars!

The doctor deserves whatever he gets legally on this. He shouldn't have administered the drugs outside of a hospital setting. The fact that he left his patient alone and left the house, never mind the room, floors me.

These "celebrity" docs get caught up too easily in all the glitz and seem to lose all sense of perspective and judgement. Let this be a lesson... but it won't, will it?

Unfortunately, the real person responsible is dead!

Well, as they say "follow the money"

Mr Jackson has a certain shame of the blame for his own demise. ~G

He was an addict. Maybe he gave himself that shot!

This reminds me of the "blame the bartender," not the stupid alcoholic. It's Michael's fault... period! He's the drug addict. The doctor was following MJ's requests and really, who in the hell is going to say, "NO," to the great Michael Jackson! I feel sorry for the doctor, regardless of what he did following Michael's death. If Michael had been saved, it would have just been a matter of time, before it happened again or he just died from all of the years of drug abuse. If one of his kids died from accidently ingesting one of his many drugs, which were all over the place... how would you feel then? Would you blame Michael or the doctor that prescribed the drugs/medication? Also, why did Michael have a new doctor? What happened to the last one? Possibly, he quit because he knew that Michael was playing with fire. Also, weren't there prescriptions, with fake names on them? I guess, if I were rich and had a drug problem... I would hire a full time doctor to help me medicate myself into a regular, semi-coma; however, I would have at least written out a disclaimer for the doctor, which is the only mistake the doctor made.... period!

Obviously, if he'd wanted to kill himself, he could have done it long ago with all the drugs he had available. I think this is no more "suicide" than smoking two packs a day, being grossly overweight, etc.

I agree with Duchess-1231670 -- MJ clearly had too many shadows in his mind. Maybe he should have tried a therapist instead of all the drugs....

IKIA, Sorry to tell you this but a Dr. takes an oath that is bound by law to do no harm. If we subscribed to your line of thinking, anything would be acceptable for a Dr. to do. He had a responsibility to his patient, whether you want to think of MJ as a patient or not, he was. He absconded his responsibility for greed. The love of money. Maybe he can curl up in his cell in prison and dream about his money, as that is all his money will be a dream. As a Physician if he didn't want to do what he knew was very dangerous, practice, all he had to do was walk away. Have you heard any of the Drs. on TV when interviewed, say that administering diprovan in a home setting was a wise and prudent thing to do? I don't care what the patient wants, you have to say no sometimes for their own good.

The doc put Michael under anesthesia and LEFT THE ROOM!

I heard that weeks ago and knew then, this doc was in BIG TROUBLE.

The doctor should have know better...BUT, MJ's death is MJ's own fault. He bought and paid for people to enable him, and that's what he got. Others refused to take part in his requests for those drugs...(hmmm, women...apparently have more sense and less greedy.) Dr. should definitely lose his license and face criminal charges..but I don't think he killed MJ. His crime is greed and no backbone. MJ killed MJ.

The doctor only did what he was "urged" to do! He was being PAID to do what was requested of him. The only penalty he should suffer, at the most, is a short suspension of his license. I believe there is way more to this story and the Jackson family is doing everything possible to cover it up! Even the public, yes, us naive SOB's, knew he had problems of catastrophic proportions!!!

With that said, MJ still deserves to rest in peace.

Let the witchhunt begin.

He was fr'ck'n Michael Jackson, he didn't do anything he didn't want to do.

I guess you can't rest in peace just yet, Michael. The 'mob' isn't done stretching out this drama.

Aggie and colshjunior -- Read what Lynn-410457 said above. A doctor takes an oath to do no harm, so if what he did could have been foreseen to be very dangerous, the doctor IS responsible (at least in part.) He could always have said no, like other doctors did.

Not to say that MJ was not at fault himself for asking for such treatment....

Crazy !!!!! you have the money you have the DOPE , This doctor gave in to the will of his patient like most do but if you refer to a Powerfull drug like Dip or Pro you are running the gallow pole anyway . SHEESH MILK COME ON WACKO JACKO IS RIGHT!!!!!

Why would you call this assisted suicide? MJ had been doing these drugs for years. There's no reason to think that he particularly wanted to die this time.

milk people milk come on

milk

MJ a DOPER and Pedifile?

Now they want to blame the last doctor who administed.

REDICULUS!!!

look @ ozzy kelly jack MONEY = Dope at least they got help I have insomnia I know better, I have had my left kidney removed and 5 surg's with it Im alive I know what his Milk does they used it in all of my operations, you get what you deserve for not using your head if it were you or I we would be on the 8th page in the back of out local paper wonder if they will use a coffin with "Got Milk" on it so other people dont use propol.

OH I forgot we are not rich and we as a human race use our heads and take our blame for addiction and seek help or Die we dont charge our Doctor with manslaughter .

Even though the Coroner ruled MJ'sdeath a homicide, I feel his death could have been intentional or unintentional suicide. How can it be proven that his doctor injected the lethal dosage?

We don't know what, exactly, MJ had taken on his own without the DRs knowledge.

Maybe an extra valium or something? Who knows?

What, exactly, was keeping MJ awake through all of this anyway? What kind of pain was he in, mentally?

I do feel sorry for him, I really do. I know a little about anxiety and not being able to sleep.

No doubt that the so called "Doctor" involved in this drama will be crucified for his alleged sins... and may well deserve it. No one knows for certain except for him and MJ and MJ is dead.

There is one thing here that as far as I am concerned will not be in question. Mr. Jackson had a serious drug addiction. He was an addict and died just as many addicts do... with an arm full of too much dope... Jackson was no fool... regardless of all his pundits labeling him as "Child like" and "Naive"... he certainly understood addiction... he certainly knew of the many other artists that have died from overdoses.... and most importantly... he knew enough about wanting get high...oh I'm sorry... I mean... go to sleep.... to keep asking the Doc for the dope until he got his favorite drug of choice (his "nightie night" milk) given to him.

Was the doctor negligent?... perhaps... Was Michael a drug addict and self destructive?...Most certainly.

Just another dead drug addicted music star.... nothing new under the Sun...

It has not been reported that he did not know the levels of dose.

That being said......he could have done it to himself in that he paid for high levels of dosage.

In that he and his want to change into what ever he could, suggest that he uses people to get what he wants, including people hearts.

He should have been locked up in a mental hospital.

at best it will be an involuntary manslaughter charge... I don't think that the doctor set out to kill Jackson intentionally.

Nonetheless: did you all see the list?? My cousin's wife, Raija (a Norwegian) used to pop valium with beer--and it was amazing to me she didn't drop dead...

Jackson must've developed an extreme resistance to the drugs (which, of course, to have the desired effect, required ever-increasing amounts of the same). Pity.

He should have at least allowed 8 hrs to pass from the sedative doses before injecting the Propofol. Sometimes you just have to turn the patient protests off in your head, and wait it out. Also, trading one addictive drug for another was just plain stupid. Lorazepam is in a class similar to Xanax! Your're not a methadone clinic "Dr" Murray!

bushhater--Are you really as stupid as you sound?

Dr. Murray had better lawyer up.

Murray has an attorney.

Jolie what does being minority have to do with anything?

it appears to me the man was so full of self hatred he tried to destroy himself in one way or another for years....he finally suicided but now they want to make someone else pay the price for him.

What the doctor did was WRONG, he should have quit the job and walked away. But ultimately, I hold Michael Jackson RESPONSIBLE for his own death! He more than likely, DEMANDED, MORE, AND MORE DRUGS AND HIGHER DOSAGE, since, obviously, the last dose was not effective! It's OBVIOUS, that MJ was addictive to these drugs, and when one ceased being effective, he looked for something stronger! Apparently, he got the TOP drug that finally did him in ... HOW FREAKING STUPID!

MJ should have checked himself into a sanitarium, and DETOXED his body! I guess when you have lots of money or access to it, you just continue doing dumb azz things! What an A-hole! To me, he did not love his children deep enough, or else he would have done the RIGHT THING, and cleanse his body of all those drugs!

In my opinion, I don't think the doctor should be jailed, but he certainly should LOOSE his LICENSE to practice medicine. It also proves how EVIL and DESTRUCTIVE money becomes to individuals who WILL do ANYTHING to have it!

Sorry Mrs. Jackson, but your son MJ is TOTALLY RESPONSIBLE for his death; he was no child, he knew better, but REFUSED to get help for himself. He was not murdered, and his death should no be ruled a homicide! HE DEMANDED MORE, AND RECEIVED THE DEADLY DOSE! DUMB AZZ! and the doctor was EQUALLY as DUMB for giving it to him!

It's truly a ashame what people won't do for the almighty dollar, its EXACTLY WHY, the WHOLE of America is screwed up! All those bastards responsible for the meltdown of our economy, should GO TO JAIL, after retrieving all their STOLEN WEALTH, for the rest of their lives! But instead, our screwed up government, gave them MORE, to SCREW UP SOME MORE! What a nasty vicious cycle, and country we live in!

It would appear that Mr. Jackson was complicit in his own death. He knew what he was doing; the only thing this Dr. is guilty of is greed. Had it not been him it would have been some other financially strapped quack. What horrible sins were haunting Mr. Jackson that he could not sleep, even after taking massive doses of sedatives? After an acceptable amount of time has passed, the truth will come out and then we will know why the man could not sleep.

Dr. Murray and Michael Jackson used and destroyed each-other... Jackson had a monster tolerance he got somewhere long before Dr. Murray arrived. Jackson knew Murray needed money and Dr. Murray all too gladly took it to do something he knew to be unethical. Both were adults although neither acted like it... now they both have consequences. I feel sorry for both and neither.

I wonder who gets the glove?

When a licensed physician is involved it is definitely manslaughter as well as malpractice. I find it difficult to believe that this "doctor" was trying to ween him from drugs after he applied such quantities.

So a Drug addict/Child Molester with enough money to pay a Dr. to get him high died. SO WHAT!

The coroner is wrong. MJ's death was not a homicide; it was a suicide.

Why the fuss? consider it removing a cancer upon the skin of society. Give the Doc a medal for proper disposal of medical waste, and let him go. Funny, but why delete this? It is a statement of fact-a pedophile is a cancer on the skin of society. Unless, of course, you are a NAMBLA member. In which case, you would be the cancer we are referring to. (NAMBLA-North American Man Boy Love Association)

You know what makes someone not sleep after drugs like that?????

Meth. They found effedra in his system (FACT) that is an ingredient in Mth and with all the drugs he was humpin it is easy to see where the needle marks on his leg that were rotting away (VITILIGO) came from. He was a freakin Junky just like Elvis.

King of Rock? King of POP? Look up the pictures of his needle marked rotting legs and say to yourself. The King of Pop!!!! What a clown! Right now he looks like he did when he was in thriller. his family is STILL milking him for what they can. They canceled his funeral because they did not want to compete with Teddy Kennedy! Michael was scheduled for burial on Saturday. Only canceled after Teddy's date was set.

These are ALL facts not opinion.

I appreciate your comments, but Teddy Kennedy was NOT dead when they originally planned for MJ's funeral....That is fact. How would MJ's family surmise that in a couple of weeks, Ted K. would pass and have a funeral on that specific day?

Additionally, vitiligo has NOTHING to do with needle marks and Meth. The sores on his legs are a result of lupus. Lupus CAN cause lesions or bed sores.

Chronic cutaneous lupus (discoid lupus) appears as disk-shaped, round lesions. The sores usually appear on your scalp and face, but sometimes they will occur on other parts of your body as well. Approximately 10 percent of people with discoid lupus later develop systemic lupus, but these people probably had systemic lupus to begin with, with the skin rash as the first symptom.

Discoid lupus lesions are often red, scaly, and thick. Usually they do not hurt or itch. Over time these lesions can produce scarring and skin discoloration (darkly colored and/or lightly colored areas/bloody). Discoid lesions that occur on the scalp may cause hair to fall out. If the lesions form scars when they heal, hair loss may be permanent.

Thank you again for your comments, but I think it is better to make sure we have documented research to back up the claims. Again, my own humble opinion, blessings!

and do you have proof that he did these things or are you one of the people that wanted to take money from him

I couldn't have said it any better, Theresa -- it is so tragic...I can't stop thinking about his mother and children -- regardless of what anyone thinks of MJ, he was a brilliant entertainer and visionary, and most important of all, a son and father...it makes me very sad...

OMG- so tragic, taken away with his brilliance way too soon. Yeah right, he took enough drugs to fill a pharmacy in his life. Prescribed yes, good idea, no.

There are heros returning in the belly of 747's every day that paid the ultimate price and this piece of humanity gets a breaking news headline? The people who wear a real uniform should be honored, not one who wore a pretend,sequined imposter uniform. Local story at best.

If all these people don't care about Michael Jackson, why do they waste their time writing snotty remarks. There's plenty of other news to write about - wish they'd go to those stories and put their dribble there.

I wish I still had my Thriller album - don't know what happened to it, lost it years ago.

phantom poodle

its because their brain cells leaked out of their heads and they can't find it.

Just how dumb was Michael Jackson? He employed this "doctor" and he had to have known all these injections weren't safe. This isn't someone who had a bad reaction to some prescription pills. Granted, the doctor broke the law and should lose his license at the very least, but Jackson knowingly risked his own life. Spare me all the misplaced pity.

young children (mostly boys I might add) were "sleeping" or "watching movies in the dark" or "whatever" with him in his bed... you don't think that seems strange?

Red flag nay sayers... that spells touchy-feely trouble big time!

You, I, and everyone else was robbed of nothing..that what he was a nothing...

Agree Totally !!

Michael Jackson would have been back on top of the world when the London shows started.  Dr. Quack:  he's a killer, that's that.  I have no mercy for him.  Real doctors take an oath "Do NO Harm." 

The majority of people on this planet this MJ was harrassed to death by that idiot prosecutor who took him to trial. Michael was so gentle, so kind...he would never have hurt anything or anyone.

Oh, his children were robbed alright. They were born intentionally in to a household with only one parent where drugs were always number 1 and sadly, his children couldn't compete.

Jackson had enough money to buy his pleasure and found a greedy enough creep more than willing to sell it to him. Not a soul forced this man to consume more drugs than a pharmacy. The Doc is a pusher and those Pharmacies are simply street corner thugs selling dope like any other. They all sold their souls, including Jackson. What a shame no one asked what the children wanted! Addicts never do. Drug dealers never will.

I say again, the payoffs prove the crime. How many never even made the news? He is rotting in the H E L L he deserves. RIM, MJ (Rot In Misery, Michael Jackson)

The children are not his – biologically – he bought them – by paying off his 'wife' – making a deal to keep them with him and she – so stupid – took the money and left.

He is not their 'father' – just by 'changing his skin color and adding those UGLY

White-Man features and colorings – does not change the DNA – one is born with.

Let us be honest – MJ hated the fact that he was a black man. Well, he lived and died a miserable human being and very ugly – at that!

MJ was a good-looking stable young man as anyone can attest from his photos.

His whole family – parents and siblings – each and everyone – all are good-looking people. Enough said!

Marsha cubed, HE WAS A PEDOPHILE, NOT A SWEET AND GENTLE SOUL. END OF STORY. Innocent people do not pay off liars and extortionists, they fight, countersue, and prove their innocence. He did none of these things, HE"S GUILTY. Start thinking of all the poor boys pimped out to him over the years. Put your sympathy where it belongs, with them them.

The guy wouldn't have sex with a woman he preferred guys or little boys. I believe he had his testicles cut off to keep a high voice and did not want any one to know. So when he wanted kids to look normal he got some WHITE guys to donate sperm and a WHITE woman to carry the child. Waco Jacko!! He had that name for a reason. This guy had some serious mental problems.

His family and his children are the victims...not Michael Jackson.

Theresa -- It's not murder if the doctor didn't INTEND to kill him. Given how many drugs he injected before the propofol, clearly the doctor could have killed him much sooner if he wanted to.

Wish the stupid doctor had 'fessed up right away, though.

Jolie

And maybe you shouldn't make racial remarks. Your comments are unwarranted.

What about Dr. Charles Drew who pioneered reasearch into modern day plasma harvesting and developed the first blood bank...or better yet, what about Dr. Daniel Hale Williams who was the First African American surgeon to perform open heart surgery...or even better..Dr. Mae Jamison, a medical scientist who was the first African American who went to space..but of course, NASA will only accept c list African Americans...

Those comments are racist and unwarranted..If we dig into our history a bit more, we all would learn that many of of our MODERN technology was developed by African Americans....

Not to mention involvement by the ACLU.

Stop pandering, there were no riots until the verdict said the cops were innocent. He (Michael) pick the doctor, so it was His fault in the end.

+1, Aaron.

Just how many of Michael's fans do you think are white? Riot for what? ACLU? Stay in your compound you race baiting idiot.

most of Michael Jackson's fans are WHITE!  You are such a stupid idiot.

hmmm,wonder if Al and Jesse will be banging their pots and pans tonite?...I doubt it..

My guess is that most blacks are, justifiedly, embarrassed that MJ was born black, but so ashamed of it that he tried to be the ultimate reverse oreo (black on the inside and white on the outside). While the pain from mistreatment has cause much of it, black entertainers are amongst the finest in the world, and the blues is one of the most beautiful musical genres out there. It is such a shame that he was so ashamed of being black, but in the long run, blacks are better off with him being considered a freak, rather than a black man. I'd rather listen to Aretha, Ray, Sammy, Charlie, Tina, hell, even Whitney, before I'd ever listen MJ. These should epitomize black entertainment, not him. Heck, I don't like Opah (her politics and mine disagree) but I'd rather watch two hours of her than five minutes of Thriller.

As an African American woman, who can only speak for herself, I would humbly say your guess is wrong. Many of the African Americans I know, embrace and still embrace MJ in all of his eccentricies. Mj revolutionized pop music. He did not try to be a reverse oreo-our community understands the effect of vitiligo on African American skin. It is devastating. It literally washes you out..my family member is on his way to being MJ's complexion-not because he is an oreo, but because he has an automimmune disease. His skin was the most beautiful dark shade of chocolate, and now, the splotches on his face and chest grow year to year. My heart hurts for him and every other African American who is accused of trying to 'turn white' by people who truly don't understand the effect the disease has on the melanin on African American skin.

I am proud of MJ's accomplishments to the music industry-without it, we would not have our Beyonce's, Usher's, and even Justin Timberlake. Again, I don't speak for a group, I speak for myself and those who I have talked to about MJ's impact in our musical history.. Only my humble opinion..blessings!

MJ was in life a perfect metaphor for what kind of freak show the USA has become.

Michael Jackson's death would not justifiably be a matter of public debate, except that there are people in power who will still want to do things like name subways after him or hold him up to be some kind of a role model in some way.

Michael Jackson bought what Michael Jackson wanted as a rule I should think; if Dr. Murray had not employed Propofol , then it would seem that Michael Jackson would have paid money to someone else to get Propofol. It's just a matter of how much money and who and how. That is just the evidence it would seem. It would seem that Michael Jackson was his own physician, and that Dr. Murray allowed himself to be used as a mere facilitator---Propofol has no recognized use in a home setting. None. It's just too dangerous without the appropriate facilities, support and equipment, and the drug itself offers no benefit which would justify it's use in a home setting. If the facts are as they seem to be, Dr. Murray could easily be found guilty of negligent homicide---but clearly Michael Jackson was behaving in a totally reckless manner himself and has been for a long time.

Praying- please do not take my statements as considering a disease the same thing as shame for your color. I have seen blacks with vitiligo, and it is a very sad thing to contemplate. In my opinion, MJ did not have it. No splotches, no shading edges towards pink, none of the visible symptoms. He would simply go into seclusion, then come out even more freakish looking. He was a very good looking boy, a handsome young man, and a frankensteins monster from plastic surgeries by the time of his death. Even overlooking his private life peccadillos, I am embarrassed to consider him human, that is why I feel that despite his musical accomplishments(many and awesome) his shame regarding his appearances implied is intense dislike of his own racial identity. Vitiligo does not re-sculpt the nose, chin, and lips,nor cause that even, ghostly pale color. That was voluntary, and IF I were black, I would consider it an insult. Since I am not, I can only speculate, and I did. If that speculation insulted YOU, you have my deepest apologies. My personal stance on race is that the sooner we become colorblind, the sooner we can move on to getting rid of all the left-handed people (sarcasm intended at highlighting the stupidity of prejudices, not a serious comment). But until then, I will go on admiring the attractive forms available in every skin color, and hoping to see the end of prejudice in my lifetime.

Neale Osborn,

MJ had vitiligo. There was a video where they showed the splotchness on his legs. You may not have seen the splotches, but it does mean he didn't have them. I have seen people cover up their skin so people wouldn't notice. Which is unfortunate, but understandable. That's probabaly one reason why he went into seclusion. Humans are mean about others/about things when they don't understand. There are ways that the rest of the skin can be lighted, which he did. Others have done it, he hasn't been the first and won't be the last. The only difference is he was in the spot light so more people noticed it and made their comments. I'm black and I don't consider what he did an insult.

Neale, thank you, but you are wrong. MJ had vitiligo. If you go to google and google some of the pics they have where he is raising his pants leg up, you see the splotches. It is medically impossible to raise the melanin out of your skin. What he did was go through a treatment that would 'even' out the splotches in his skin and then he would wear body makeup to even out his skin tone. Vitiligo patients have to wear lipstick, eyeliner, and body makeup because it literally washes the pigmentation in your skin out..You even have to wear a special made SPF sunscreen because the melanin in our skin makes us less prone to skin cancer..without it, they are 100% more likely to get skin cancer.

As someone who has had experience with this diesease, as a family member has it, it is easy to say 'I don't think this was the case.' My family member will/is becoming as light as MJ and he has to deal daily with people saying "he is bleaching his skin", "He is a freak," or "he does not want to be African American anymore." Heck, there was a report of a woman on Inside Edition yesterday and Good Morning America who was as light as MJ and had the same disease. Yes, it is possible for a dark skinned African American to 'look white' with this disease. It is always easier to assume the worse, than to say, hey, maybe this one time, MJ had a legitimate issue.

His plastic surgery has NOTHING to do with the disease...But, I appreciate your response Neale. Blessings to you!

I always appreciate learning something new, and if I offended, I apologize. If he had it, then the skin color is understandable, and I retract the statements regarding it. I still believe the surgeries to be a sign of dissatisfaction, maybe shame, but with the color being taken out, maybe it was just sugical addiction, like the "lizard ladies" the ones with so many facelifts that their eyebrows are on their foreheads. I do not change my opinion of MJ's behaviour, I have made my reasons why clear, but perhapsI am wrong regarding his being ashamed of his race. I do not know if you are right, but I shall never voice that opinion again because it is far less plausible to me. I may be wrong from time to time (don't tell my wife I admitted that, LOL), but once reasonable doubt is presented, and seems plausible to me, I admit it. My best to your family member. Since it is very difficult, as a white, non medical professional to ask questions of those I have met with vitiligo, I apparently made false assumptions, with the usual results. Again, apologies to any I offended, and my thank for the gracious explanations, totally free of recriminations. Here on the vine, far too many react without the kindness and patience you two have shown, Praying and NMark, and I hope more in the future follow your fine examples. Your tolerance of my ignorance was class, personified.

No harm, no foul. Yes, the surgical addiction was a bit much, but no more than anyone who did not like what they see in the mirror...Often, people can take behaviors too far.

Thank you for the open dialogue..It is always wonderful to converse and offer another perspective. Thank you for the sentiments for my family member. :) And no, I won't tell your wife! LOL!!! Blessings to you! :)

And to you. goodnight.

Neale,

Thank you for the compliment. i wish people where more open minded when speaking and having disucssions. It makes things a lot better and easier to get points across. unfortunately there will always be various individuals what will yell scream and call people names particularly when they get called out for something they said. This happened to me recently, and I think someone in admin deleted it them. Not because of me but I think because of the other person.

Well, Mark, we all have a right to opinions. My personal beliefs, as long as I do not get abusive, shouldn't be deleted any more than the ones I disagree with. I have been attacked in this forum, and asked Tyler not to delete the attacker, because even hateful people have the right to speak, AND their vitriol may well point out us how misguided we can occasionally be. The preceeding is a perfect case in point, even though NONE of us were nasty, two nice people taught a third something he was mis-informed about was wrong, helped me see some more to pity MJ for. I also appreciate the fact that no one got made for the rest of my opinion, you merely helped to explain the parts I was factually wrong, and politely ignored the parts that are only opinions. BTW, if you have questions re my stance on race, you might enjoy my article on the vine "If You Ain't American, Then go Away, A new look At The Race Problem". The title is intended to get your attention, but it is definitely NOT racist. You might even agree with me. Goodbye, my new friends. Enjoy life to the fullest.

In all folks talk of skin color and visions of rainbows something was left out about Jackson... that was the personal demon that I think may be related to his substance abuse... that is his possible if not probable abuse of children. My problem with the way MM has played this story is the way folks just seem to ignore the fact the man was in all likelihood a child abuser...A man who abused his celebrity to gain access to children... sick children that would not have the time or energy to peruse legal action against him. I am not one that stands and defends law enforcement often or easily but in this case I think the police knew what Jackson was doing and tried to stop him unsuccessfully. We all watched as OJ... with literally, blood on his hands and bedroom skated. This just one of several high profile "get out of jail free cards" we have all seen the legal system pass out. Now the supporters of MJ say, "he wasn't convicted of that!"... to them I say, what is new?... no one... no matter how rich.... pays a liar 2 million bucks to go away. Given that I hope we can all take MJ's obvious talent and enjoy it but not aggrandize the man... a very flawed and sad man with demons we all should be shamed by.

Neale

You are right we are all entitled to an opinion and have a right to express it as well. for me personally I draw the line when people start calling me names without even knowing me. And then tells me to stay out of a conversation and when I don't insult me some more all the while not answering a simple question. I think discussions are better when people are willing to listen, not necessarily agree but at least listen. But when that goes out the door and one or all are now throwing insults around then something should be done about the situation. Whether its one person walking away or a message getting deleted. That all IMO.

DeMock

This is coming from an attorney, people settle all the time, some people settle for less some people settle for more. A person that decides to offer a settlement doesn't mean they are guilty and the accusation is true. In MJ case we will never know, all of us go by how we feel in the situation. I wrote this to someone else, how can a person take money from another when they believe that person molested his or her child? The thinking goes both ways.

I would have to agree. If it was my child, I would have him under the jail..not take money and now I won't 'cooperate.' (The 1994 GQ article was an interesting read.)

I think the issue for many people is that he had two accusations..but look at it from another point of view. If MJ was a true pedophile, the same behavior he was accused of would be multiplied. He would not discriminate with anyone's child, least his own. Why do we only hear of two?

The whole "people don't settle if they are innocent" is hogwash. I know someone who was once accused of stealing from a retail store she was working at. During the 'interrogation' in the store, she agreed to sign documentation stating she admitted to stealing the money and would pay it back..why did she do that when she was innocent..Heightened emotional state and she wanted to 'make it go away.' It is easy to say, that was a stupid move or she should have known better, but if anyone else was in her shoes we can't say what we would do. It goes against rational thought process to 'pay off' something she did not do, but we are human and are entitled to err. Many people say She should have fought the charges or that is the dumbest thing I ever heard..but until we are there in those shoes..who knows what we would do..It is all talk, but put the talk to the test..

In the end, she was exonerated because it was discovered that her co-worker actually did it. She could have filed a lawsuit for wrongful termination, etc, but she just wanted it to go away and she was advised to let it be. MJ was exonerated in court and no matter what opinion we carry, none of us really know..and quite frankly, it is not my place to speculate. I can offer my opinion, but that is it.. I rather stay in my own lane.

Yes, innocent people settle all the time..and I err to the attorneys and lawyers who know and broker these type of deals all the time...It happens..only my own humble opinion..Blessings!

NMark wrote:

This is coming from an attorney...

NMark, I am sure you studied hard for your degree and this is not a slam... what you say defies logic. I come from a family of attorneys... my dad, his sister , her husband... and those are just the close relatives. That is a huge settlement... one that rivals a win in court? Too big of a settlement for there to be nothing...zilch... a lie. Would you not agree that it is a huge number for a totally unfounded case... one that was already a pr nightmare? The case would not have been made anything but better by a Jackson court victory... against a liar... right? Further, there were the multiple accusations and rumors both preceding and following that case. Being an attorney, I am going to guess you understand that DA's don't go home and scheme about how to "get" innocent people. And police have better things to do than falsely accuse the "king of Pop" of abusing kids. I understand you are playing the devils advocate... but be real... would you send your kids(or anyone's kids) over to Mike's for a sleep over? Remember, he was an adult who had been accused multiple times of abuse and he was a drug addict who was "sleeping" with little boys... that spells molester in my book. I love his music and I think that his musical accomplishments are great but I just don't want people to forget the dark side... I know the kids he was "involved" with won't.....

Demock

It doesn't defy logic....but if that is the way you chose to look at it that's fine. But I've seen it plenty of times, especially when you have an attorney that's charging $800 an hour.

Here's the thing being a DA or being an officer does not immune them from wrong doing. unfortunately there are ones that abuse his or her position. I'm not saying that is what was done here. However, cases are began on what someone says and then an investigation follows. In order to go to a criminal trial you don't need much but a true bill from the grand jury which basically says there is sufficient evidence for a trial not necessarily for a conviction.

If I knew MJ yes I would have my child over, but if i didn't there is no way. Not because of what was said but I wouldn't allow my child to be around anyone I didn't personally know. If it was just MJ no, but if it was his kids yes.

I will repeat the question would you settle if a man molested your child? I wouldn't I would make sure he was prosecuted so that he wouldn't be able to hurt my child or anyone else's child. The reasoning goes both ways. We really won't know what happened since the main to cases the boys came back and said that it didn't happen or that MJ didn't touch them like that. Its all in God's hands now and he will judge accordingly for he is the only one that should. We just have our opinions.

NMark - wrote:

I will repeat the question would you settle if a man molested your child?

I thought that was one of those lawyer questions meant to trap the naive but you really want me to answer it? OK, NMark, it is much more likely a parent would settle... to keep their child off the stand. It happens all the time... deals are made to punish the offender without a trial (to protect the victim from trial). In this case the Ca criminal code was screwed up... it allowed Jackson to pay a victim to walk away. The law was changed after that... so rich people couldn't pay criminal victims off to keep them from testifying... You can argue about the law but I don't think any parent wouldn't understand exactly what happened and why. Here is the problem NMark, grown men do not "share their bed" with other folks children. They sure as hell don't do it after they came as close as Jackson did to jail once.

I will leave you with these thoughts. In the law there is the presumption of innocence... in life it is different... we have to use common sense. Common sense tells me that normal people are not accused over and over of the same thing for no reason. Molesters and pedophiles OFTEN surround themselves with children. They become scout leaders, youth directors, teachers... when they are caught people all around them say WOW! I thought he loved kids..."I can't believe it"... but this is the only case I have EVER heard of where a man has been accused molestation over and over and people just simply refuse to believe it (despite a mountain of evidence). They continue to bring their precious children to Jackson's for "sleep over's"... it defies common sense and logic. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Ted Bundy had women writing him proposals of marriage right up until they executed him. I guess some men have the ability to beguile...

I am just curious, what other molestation charges was MJ brought up on besides the two documented cases? No, it is not logical for a grown man to have sleep over's with children, but I read/watched (cant remember) the court psychologist who had to evaluate MJ's pedophilic tendency..According to what I read, the psychologist stated that MJ had the mind of a 10 year old and that he did not display those type of behaviors. The psy. also stated that MJ did not rationally think about his actions from a grown and logical adult...

I agree with NMark..we need to look at both sides of the coin and not just one. Anyone can be found guilty in the court of public opinion-because as it stands, we only have opinions. :) Blessings to you!

Praying wrote:

I am just curious, what other molestation charges was MJ brought up on besides the two documented cases?

How many time do children need to point at Jackson and say, "that man molested me!"... does it need to be three? five? twelve? Get real... there were rumors all the time about this kid and that... just like there were rumors of wild drug abuse... and we know he didn't abuse drugs, right? He had all the classic traits of a pedophile... you mentioned some... child like emotionally... unable to relate to adults... substance issues... surrounded himself with children... had books and pictures... overly involved himself in childrens day to day lives (on their level)... Bottom line, because of the Jackson name people have blinded themselves to what is otherwise a no brainer.

Praying let me ask you something.... I assume you are a church goer. (If you are not that is fine) If you were a member of the group in your church who hired youth ministers... would you consider a man who had been accused and arrested twice for molestation? Would you send the youth on sleep overs with a person who had been accused similarly to Jackson? We all know what the rational answer is... what is yours?

Praying wrote:

MJ was exonerated in court

Not the case at all... he was found not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt... that is a long way from "exonerated". He also paid one kid 2 million bucks to not testify. That is not the act of an innocent. The PR damage was done... the only thing that would have helped was a not guilty verdict but Jackson knew that wasn't going to happen so he paid.

DeMock,

I understand your reasoning why a parent settled, but the pedophile would still be on the streets...right? A parent could live with themselves when they allowed a child molester to run free to pray on other children. To allow what happened to his or her child to happen to another child?

Yes, a trial overall is traumatizing. That's why in many jurisdictions there are rules on how to discuss this with children. Many children are evaluated to make sure they are okay to to be asked questions and how far it can go. Many judges/courts/jurisdictions allow a child to be video taped while questions are being asked. And a psychologist is present to look after the child's well being.

I never said MJ's actions were right. Was it imporper to have them sleep in his bed with him? Yes, however, I don't believe he molested the children. All in IMO.

NMark, you can have that opinion... there is no dispute about that. My problem is that people are giving Jackson more leeway than they would anyone else... why? Because he can moon walk? Be honest, if we were talking about a person who was not famous would there be even a shred of doubt that something was wrong with them? If average Joe Schmo had almost gone to prison over molestation charges and just a few years later you found out they were holding "sleep overs" with little boys again(and btw the sleep over boy says he was molested). Would your first thought be..OH, let's give him the benefit of the doubt? OR would it go something like... this guy is out of control... there is a problem?

Obviously, we will not agree... I just think aggrandizing this man is a mistake... he was flawed... deeply .... we should not be sending the message to kids that Jackson(or anyone) should be given pass because he/she is rich or talented... or even if he/she can moon walk. enjoy his music... learn from his mistakes...yes.... but there are plenty of very talented people to raise up... Jackson is not one.

Thank you Demock for your comments. Again, as I said before, they are my own humble opinion. God only knows what happened, but let's not say he has had all of these molestation charges as if there were hundreds of kids lining up. From what I remember, there were two documented cases-one of which ended up in a settlement and the other ended in a trial were he was deemed innocent. Again, I agree with NMark and believe both sides of the argument should be looked at...

At the end of the day, my opinion, media opinion, society's opinion is just that...opinion. As I said before, it was not a smart rational thought to have sleep overs with children-that is a given, but God judges and ultimately he knows what happened, all I have is opinions of a humble flawed human. Thank you again for your response.

DeMock

That's the difference between me and a lot of other people I just don't assume. I look at things from different angles not just one. I go with more than what I hear. I make my comments like most but not close to the level of others. I try my best to be open-minded. I rather look into what I learn and how I feel before I make a decision. My gut has yet to tell me that he molested a child. Could I be wrong? Of course.

Yes, we won't agree. Once again, I said having sleep overs wasn't right. yes, he was flawed and went through whatever he did. I'm not giving him a free pass nor am I sitting here trying to send a message to kids that he should get a free pass. What I've been giving is my opinion, which differs from yours. He put himself in the situation to be accused, but it doesn't mean he did it. Even though I don't think he molested a child doesn't mean that I am blindly defending him.

Praying writes again:

the other ended in a trial were he was deemed innocent

that is simply not the case... ask NMark... maybe he can explain better than I. Here is one more stab at it. Our system rarely proclaims someone innocent... in our system most often and as was the case with Jackson they found him "not Guilty (beyond a reasonable doubt)" Which is not innocent.... it is a long way from it. Our system is designed to free guilty folks before convicting innocent ones... that is what makes it great but it also lets crimes that are hard to convict... like molestation... go unpunished all too often.

I felt certain that you would not answer my questions... as so many into religion do... you skipped the hard questions.

Again, I don't have to..ultimately I have my opinion and you will have yours. Asking questions will not convince me, nor will any answer I give, convince you. I don't have to engage any question posed..not because I cannot articulate an intelligent answer, but because I will not get into a debate over opinions. I chose to say we shall agree to disagree.

Again, I stand by what I said...God judges and I have opinions...I also stand by what NMark says..By the way, NMark is a woman. Blessings to you.

Praying, I stand by what I said too... people into religion always seem to duck the hard questions. (like the ones in #4.28) It is fine... just know I and others notice it .

Again, thank you for your comments. +I am not a person "into religion." I have a relationship with God. Now, I can only speak for myself..I don't lump myself into groups or say "people into religion always seem to duck the hard questions.."; again, I have opinions of the situation as you do yours. The discourse would not be warranted because we will not change each other's minds...Relationship with God or not. Not answering questions or answering them is not any in way a bad thing..it is a choice to stick to one's own opinions/convictions. Every battle does not have to be fought.

I appreciate your concern. Thanks again.

This is ridiculous to hear people focusing on MJ's pedophile case. Whenever I heard that, I believe some people have no clue about the medical field.

This case is about MJ who died of "Acute propofol intoxication and his addiction". We all know he was an addict. Pedophile or not, a medical doctor has no right to administer such deadly anesthetic to please an addict.

This is what will endanger MJ's doctors in court:

1. Mj did not receive necessary therapy for a valid indication-Access problem
2. his therapy for sleep aid did not have the intended effect within a reasonable time
3. His therapy produced undesirable effects-This is a safety problem because MJ died.

Is Dr Murray responsible for that? Hell yes. Is the propofol/diprivan Manufacturers responsible for this safety problem? Hell Yes-Mayo clinic stop using this meds in seizure patients-2 out of 3 patients died after taking it, and prior to that there were reports about propofol to be deadly and FDA ignored those reports. Are other doctors responsible for his death? Hell yes.

I believe propofol/diprivan is not safe for certain patients-Some people bedridden in hospitals/ICU/CCU experieced its severe adverse reactions and they are detrimental to their healths.

Get some sense People and know the law.

No judge, no jury, and no experts will be based on MJ pedophile's behavior to make a decision.

MJ was an addict, but remember that " a physician shall respect the law and also recognize a responsibility to seek changes to those requirements which are contrary to the best interests of the patients."

Even if MJ molested his doctors' children which I think he didn't, his doctors were in the position to provide MJ the best care-doctors should treat their family members as their patients as they should treat their enemies as their family members.

For a drug to be in the market, it has to be safe and effective. Propofol/diprivan induced respiratory depression, respiratory faillure, severe hypotention and bradycardia, asystole, cardiorespiratory arrest etc death whether some patients are in hospital settings (under skilled health care professionals) or in the community (home).

Do doctors exactly know how detrimental propofol/diprivan can be to some people' body?Many lost a loved one after taking it in hospitals.

If indeed Dr Murray administered 25 mg propofol/diprivan in MJ's vein, and he developped acute propofol intoxication and died of cardiorespiratory arrest, propofol is not safe-It is not safe with benzodiazepines, it is not safe when administering it alone in some people, it is not safe with steroids, it is not safe with narcotics, it is not safe with those who developped allergic reaction to benzodiazepine, narcotics etc.

Propofol/diprivan is a drug of abuse in both hospital and the community.

It would be better to target the necessary to protect the addicts and non-addicts.

get to the program - I don't know why I am ... but I will try to answer you. I was only saying we should not be treating this man like he is some great martyr... I agree his doctor should be held accountable for what is an obvious ethical lapse. On the other side we should not raise Jackson up as some type of hero... he was not one. In fact, if he was not very rich, and able to skate on a two cases in all likelihood he would be in the gray bar hotel wide awake and very alive. I have noticed that sometimes life fixes it's mistakes that way. Odd eh?

It depends on innocent is defined.

In our justice system...we use the wording (exact wording may vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction) "innocent until proven guilty." Based on looking at it that way yes he was found innocent because he was found "not guilty." In court a decision is decided whether the person is "legally" without blame. Meaning the jurors didn't believe he broke the law based on the evidence presented.

However, if a person decided to look at being innocent based on morality then that is a different story and that's where people have their own opinions on. so legally yes, he is innocent based on a not guilty verdict.

Legally, MJ was not exonerated because he was never convicted of a crime. To be exonerated a person has to be found guilty/convicted of a crime and then found innocent.

NMark now you are talking like you are not a lawyer... if you are a lawyer you know the standards used to define guilt. One is preponderance and one beyond reasonable doubt... Jacksons second trial fell under the the former. He was found "Not Guilty beyond reasonable doubt"... that is, simply, not innocent... twist any way you want, you know what I say is fact... nothing more or less. Next thing, you will be telling that it was never proved that he was a drug addict so he wasn't one of those ...

The fact of the matter is jurisdictions say you are "innocent until proven guilty." So he is legally innocent because he wasn't proven guilty. You are right he was found "not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt" thus LEGALLY INNOCENT! Show me where he was proven guilty in a court of law and then I will say he's not legally innocent. In your mind he is morally guilty/not innocent and that's different from being legally innocent. Based on your definition of legally innocent anyone that stands trial is not innocent. Maybe you should look up legally innocent. I very well know the standards. I know exactly what beyond a reasonable doubt and what preponderance of the evidence means.

Don't assume you know what I will say!

Nmark - In a criminal trial the verdict is: "Not Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt"... those are the words used by the court... not me. Courts do occasionally declare actual innocence... but they did not for Jackson... these are simple facts which are indisputable... you can twist and turn... but the words of the court are clear and succinct.

Not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is a standard. In order for a jury to find an individual guilty it must beyond reasonable doubt and no less. Talk to one of your family members about it. Once again our justice system says innocent until proven guilty. He wasn't found lLEGALLY guilty, he's innocent, legally. A criminal court cannot pass the judgement/verdict of innocent. Only guilty or not guilty if a decision can be reached. Once again look up the legal definition of innocent.

NMark - The original thing that all this is about is someone said Jackson was found innocent... that is not the case... They found reasonable doubt... that is not innocent. The court can declare a person innocent they did not do so with Jackson. End of story. I can only tell you the words of the court which were NOT GUILTY BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT... and they are not followed by "therefore innocent"... Ask OJ Simpson if he was declared innocent and how his "not guilty" worked out...

I understand what you are trying to explain (the jury found reasonable doubt and that's why he was not guilty). MJ was LEGALLY found innocent because of the not guilty verdict. Based on your logic anyone who goes to trial isn't innocent. Does that make any sense? Instead of having an assumption go look it up. Do the research. Ask people you know who are attorney's. Look up the definitions.

Innocent is a description which beyond reasonable doubt isn't. Beyond reasonable doubt is standard that is used to determine whether a person is guilty or not guilty of a crime. It's not a descriptive word you apply. In our system the words clearly state innocent until proven guilty. Was he found legally guilty? NO. I think you must be missing something. A court does not have to say he's not guilty beyond reasonable doubt and therefore innocent. Once again this is based on legality. A court/jury makes a decision based on law.

How OJ not guilty worked out? What is that suppose to mean? He was found not guilty and for that crime he is legally considered innocent. Later, he was stupid, got in trouble and later got put into jail for a totally different crime. That has nothing to do with the previous case. One again, legally OJ and MJ are deemed innocent because the words clearly state INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. A persons personal opinion is apart from that. A civil trial, the standard is totally different its a lot more lax. Anyone can sue as long as there is some sort of standing to sue. All they have to prove is that more likely then not the person caused X. It many times that isn't that hard to do, the smallest of evidence works.

So your personal opinion is that he isn't innocent of the crime and that's fine. That is seperate from the legal spectrum. Give me a cases where the court says that someone is not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and therefore innocent. You will find courts saying the person is innocent because he was found not guilty.

NMark wrote:

How OJ not guilty worked out? What is that suppose to mean? He was found not guilty and for that crime he is legally considered innocent. Later, he was stupid, got in trouble and later got put into jail for a totally different crime.

you skipped over something there didn't you? do you remember the second trial ... wrongful death? ring any bells? The courts found OJ "Not Guilty" then "responsible" in the civil case... it cost him everything and finally desperate for cash he once again showed his true criminal character and got caught robbing folks. Look where he is now... "Not Guilty" is not innocent it is just what the words and court say... nothing more or less. You are drawing a conclusion based on court action that the courts don't. They don't talk about "innocent" unless there is some action requiring it... such as a case of actual innocence like a DNA exoneration.

Good luck...

NMark this is an FYI for you... from me DeMock!

THE MASSACHUSETTS BAR ASSOCIATION AGREES WITH ME AND STATES WHAT I HAVE ALMOST WORD FOR WORD on the linked web site. Now, explain how the bar association is wrong...ok? The bar is the group that licenses attorneys, 'right? Several other state bar's have good info too so you can brush up... on your states.

from the Massachusetts bar web site:

Massachusetts Rules of Criminal Procedure provide for only two possible verdicts that can be returned by a jury: guilty or not guilty. There is no verdict of innocent. And, not guilty does not mean innocent.

PLEASE! take it up with them...

I know he went to a civil trial and never skipped over it. I also mentioned a civil trial and the standard that was used there. But we weren't talking about a civil trial we were talking about a criminal trial. I went to the link and read it over. A court adds in not guilty for reasons of insanity etc (because that is what the law allows), but you won't find cases that a court says he is found not guilty therefore he's innocent. Not once did I ever say court as a verdict said he was innocent. I never said the court found him innocent. I explained that a court decides whether a person is guilty or not guilty and if one of those decisions are reached that wording is placed in the record. Not innocent as a verdict. Once again based on how you view innocent anyone that stands trial is not innocent. I explained that he can he deemed innocent because legally he was found not guilty. Based on INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. I explained that time after time. Nothing I said changed. Yes, the jury found doubt and that's why he was found not guilty. I'm no longer going to debate the matter with you.

sorry I meant to say Not innocent is not a verdict. Not "Not innocent as a verdict"

NMark - take it up with the Mass Bar (or any Bar Association) . Good luck with your legal career....

He was acquitted. He had thousands of children come over to his place (nothing for decade +) and could not have sex with woman, man or child according to his past doctors. He even had to have others donate their semen so he could have kids. Pedophiles have an irresistible urge to have sex with children so he would been jailed long ago. The people that pressed charges all were after his money, look at what kind of people they were. It seems to me to be very inconsistent with his earlier life.

It does seem though that he did have a drug problem. I hope God doesn't judge you like you judge Michael. Everyone has their own skeletons in their closet, as you do julie.

maybe its you thats the pedo ever think of that,i love how people love using that word quite a bit

exactly, i agree, except for i do think him and Lisa Marie were gettin' it on

"wsmcke - He was acquitted. He had thousands of children come over to his place (nothing for decade +) and could not have sex with woman, man or child according to his past doctors. He even had to have others donate their semen so he could have kids. Pedophiles have an irresistible urge to have sex with children so he would been jailed long ago."

People do not have to have intercourse with a child to be a pedophile. They have many ways of obtaining sexual gratification other than having "sex with ...., ...., or child".

Julie and others who are determined to call Michael a pedophile. Unless you know something the courts don't, please withhold your hatred and judgment of the man.

He obviously was a "tortured" soul for whatever reason. No one undergoes the plastic surgery that he did without some serious issues. No one handles their children like he did (holding a baby over a balcony?) without some serious issues. It's almost like he became childlike in his logic.

It's too bad that his doctor wasn't responsible enough to say no. But the doctor had some serious financial problems of his own and didn't want to walk away from a cash cow. How sad that to the end people used Michael and took advantage of him. It started with his dad when he was a kid all the way to his doctor at the end.

We will never know the full story, but they will all have to answer to their actions eventually.

Innocent people don't PAY OFF their accusers!!!

And victims would not take money and not continue to press charges..my child and he did this? He would be UNDER the jail....Let's look at it from both perspective. Innocent people settle cases all the time...it happens. Only my humble opinion..blessings!

I was 100% sure that propofol/diprivan was the magic bullet in MJ's death and will make headline news one day.

Propofol/diprivan was very controversial 2 years ago. This anesthetic killed many, including one of my loved one. FDA and manufacturers were alerted and they have done nothing about this since MJ'death.

For a drug to be in the market, it has to be safe and effective-propofol is not safe as many witnessed this anesthetic to contributed to loved ones' death-some people died days after taking it or shortly. They were in comatose state. They struggled with severe respiratory distress, respiratory failure, and died. Someone experienced club hands after taking it until death. The person just transformed and that was the end of it.

Propofol/diprivan is a very deadly drugs for those who take benzodiazepam or some type of steroid or high dose of pain killers etc. I demand a drug review of this drug with people experiencing such conditions, those with diabetes, and emphysema.

This drug should be put in the category of control substances II and I don't think this is listed on the label. doctors prescribed this anesthetic like candy, but they failed to tell patients about its severe adverse reactions that are very detrimental to health. this is a drug-related morbidity that induces death.

Immunocompromised immune systems'people are unlikely to wake up from this dangerous anesthetic.

I want Dr. Murray and those involved to pay the consequences, but this anesthetic is so severe in some patients that they died at the hands of health care professionals whether in hospitals or not.

Who performed the drug utilization review for Dr. Murray?

I believe, this anesthetic's label is misleading, but that doesn' t allow dr. Murray to admisnister it in the home.

This is a good case that proves law makers how routinely some doctors lie to prevent lawsuits. If this happens to an average person, this case may have tough time to be in front of a jury. Who will have that kind of money to fight back? I believe few people.

Michael Jackson was not the only victim of the drug propofol/diprivan; therefore, the general public need to be protected.

wsmcke wrote:

He was acquitted. He had thousands of children come over

you say Jackson was acquitted in the second molestation case ... So was OJ. So were the cops that beat Rodney King... Jackson paid one kid 2.1 million bucks to, in effect, drop molestation charges. People are not accused of child molestation lightly... neither is a teen boy likely to want to let the world know about such abuse... Jackson was in criminal cases twice... rumors were almost constant. As were the rumors of drug abuse and we know they were true, right? Given all that I can't and don't believe the charges were baseless. There is just too much smoke for there not to be fire.

Now, who knows, maybe a sober Jackson would not do such evil but the drugs pushed him over the edge... I think most people have known someone who does stuff while drinking they would never do otherwise.

The best version of Billie Jean ever ...

he should have known better,but he was GREEDY TO MUCH SO.

Wow! That's quite an extensive warning - it scared me! Guess that this doctor didn't ever have a patient die on him. Otherwise he wouldn't have been so arrogant by giving poor Michael anything under the sun. What a horrible lack of respect and disregard he showed toward somebody who was supposed to be his patient.

Poor Michael? Seriously? He begged for the drugs... I don't feel sorry for any of the players here. Doctors need to stand up to these idiots who want to throw millions of $$ at them for a fix.

I'm sure all of those drugs have similar warnings, particularly the propofol. Heck, its normal usage is for anesthesia during operations. Why on earth would you use something that strong just to help you sleep???

Clearly, he must have had insomnia for years. Why would any doctor allow a patient such treatment just for insomnia? I'm sure if he had gotten tired enough, he would have eventually slept. I'd say there was something more to his insomnia in the first place if it went on that long (I mean before he became addicted to sleep inducing medications.) Maybe he should have tried a therapist first.

Here you go (from http://www.drugs.com/diprivan.html). Regarding propofol:

"Some MEDICINES MAY INTERACT with this medication . Tell your health care provider if you are taking any other medicines, especially any of the following:

Benzodiazepines (eg, alprazolam), narcotic pain relievers (eg, morphine), or other sedatives (eg, chloral hydrate) because they may increase the risk of this medication 's side effects"

Valium, lorazepam, and midazolam, all administered before the propofol, are all benzodiazepines. How stupid could the doctor be to mix all of these drugs within a few hours? On top of that, the doctor didn't know that a person has to be on a hard surface for CPR to do any good. On the other hand, I wouldn't call this murder, since I doubt the doctor was TRYING to kill him, more like criminally negligent homicide. I'd sure take his license away, though.

It's still homicide because the doctor "should have known" better. Just because MJ wanted the drugs, Murray didn't have to give them to him. The first 3 alone were too much for such a small person. Even I know that and I'm an event planner.

It's not clear that MJ's size had anything to do with the outcome. You'd need to know the dosages of the drugs that the doctor gave him to deduce that.

Michael's gone! Leave Him alone. The doc should have know better if he was Any kind of professional. Where did he go to med school?? Just because someone has money and obvious problems "no matter what they were", doesn't give a doctor the right to illegally administer a leathal dose of meds in such a short time period! OMG! I can't believe some of the comments on this subject! No wonder he was a troubled soul, people never left him alone!! It's sooo easy to judge isn't it? Michael will truly be missed and unfortunately is finally at peace! Nuff said....

dont miss him a bit.

Don't forget that IF this report and I say IF because no OFFICIAL REPORTS have come out from the coroner's office but let's just say that the info is correct it was stated that MJ was given a LETHAL DOSE OF PROFANOL. Sure the other drugs were mentioned in another report but IF the reported info is true that the drug totally responsible for MJ's death was Profanol. If it was a mix of the drugs then the autopsy report would state that but according to this UNAMED source it was Profanol the drug that actually killed MJ. No matter what it was totally irresponsible for this doctor to of given MJ this Profanol AND all these other drugs. We only have Dr. Murray's word that MJ begged for the Profanol when the other drugs didn't work but MJ isn't here to defend himself is he and just maybe that info from this Dr. Murray was to make himself look less guilty. Sadly we will never know the complete truth because MJ is dead.

He did die getting ready to do fifty sold out (how quickly did they sell out?) concerts just in England. That sounds like a VERY great entertainer at the TOP of their game to me. Tell me another performer that has done that just in one country, I seriously would like to know.

Liza Minnelli was right when she said "when those autopsy results come back, all hell will break loose." Here we are.

And some of us don't think the way you think or I think, and it is OK anyway. He will meet his creator (as we all will, even those who don't believe in Jesus) and he will judge him as well as you. I hope you are perfect.

Nobody expected him to be perfect; it would, however, have been nice if he didn't molest children. That's my two cents.

maybe a bad conscience?

Er, no he was not. No one has stepped forward after his death and said "he diddled me." He was exonerated after a trial by jury. He was perscribed drugs and they were administered by an MD. He did not use them on himself.

You fail at passing racist propaganda.

No, actually he was NOT exonerated after a trail by jury. The jury never heard the case because Micheal setted out of court by paying the families off. Not once, but three different times.

Please put the links down that show he paid three times. Who ever is making up stuff to prove a point is themselves a liar.

You fail at passing racist propaganda.

Rick D. What am I missing? What exactly in gramps post is racist?

M.J.

pleaded for them drug`s,maybe he could not SLEEP,because his life style brought him to that POINT.

Every time a black person is criticized isn't an example of racism. It is actually far more racist to hold blacks to a lower standard. I wonder how many of the people insisting he was NOT a pedophile would have been willing to let their OWN children spend the night at his home.

Regardless if he pleaded for them or not. The Doctor is a MD for that reason. He needed to use his supposedly superior and educated judgement and not administer those drugs. The Valium and the Lorazepam are perfectly reasonable administrations for someone who is having sleeping issues. However, the Midazolam and the Propofol should only be administered in controlled medical settings with monitored respitory staff.

Propofol is used in such instances as in ER's to reset broken bones. And it is only given once there is a Respitory Therapist present. This is due to the many instances in which breathing stops once Propofol is administered. This drug is also used in same day surgery centers.

Michael was under more pressure than any of us will ever understand.

He sold out all 50 concerts in record time but he had to make them worthwhile to his audience and even to the nasty critical media and people who can't mention his name without bringing up some UNSUBSTANTIATED ALLEGATIONS . Folks like that and the stress of always outdoing himself kept him awake. It's a shame he picked and idiot with an MD diploma instead of yoga or acupuncture to help him sleep.

Thank you for boiling this issue down to the main point and that is that doctors take an oath to "first do no harm". Michael was sadly an addict. Only addicts develop such high tolerance levels to drugs rendering the drugs useless to achieving their purpose. MJ's wealth most certainly put him in another dimension from us mere "mortals'. There are those of us who suffer from very real chronic pain who cannot find a doctor to prescribe anything due to the pressure they are under by the medical community to not aid and abet the rising prescription drug abuse epidemic. MJ got around the system by hiring an unethical doctor (and he wasn't the first). Jackson was culpable as were all the doctors involved along the way. The legal system will sort it out and I will trust the appropriate charges will be handed down. The question is - will it change anything? When the young actor died of a self inflicted drug overdose early last year, he was put on a pedastal at the Oscars (sorry - forget the young guy's name). Surely others saw something wrong with that. Bottom line - both the doctor and Michael were responsible.

Heath Ledger and really, the movie wasn't that great...But that was well said. I guess the same could be said about Marilyn Monroe and Elvis Presley too. They too had the money to buy the drugs no one could ever afford as well as buy the MDs to administer them. They were just smarter to keep the MDs out of the lime light. Of course, this DR will go to jail eventually for murder (but really an assisted suicide) because the family has more money and influence than God.

SEMPERFISIS You and many others on this board are apparently taking Dr. Murray's statements as fact. Michael isn't here to defend himself and just because this irresponsible doctor Murray makes a claim that Michael had such a high tolerance to drugs so they weren't working are making an assumption that what this quack doctor is saying is true. It's entirely possible that he made these statements to cover his butt. Again everyone is also taking what the media is saying that MJ was a drug addict when there has been absolutely no official reports or proof that he was. Yes it's true he had a problem sleeping that doesn't make him a drug addict. Just because some of the people that knew MJ are saying he was an addict doesn't make it a fact either because there are just as many also stating that MJ was NOT an addict. I think everyone should wait with their labels until there is SCIENTIFIC PROOF like those from the autopsy results and let that define whether he was an addict or not. Eventually the actual results will be released and I'm talking about the OFFICIAL results from the coroner's office not what someone who claims to have inside information is saying, and those results will tell us whether MJ was an actual drug addict or not.

Also don't forget in another statement this Dr. Quack Murray is also stating that MJ was begging for the profanol when the other drugs didn't work. Again that is this doctor's attempt at covering his butt. Unfortunately we will never know the actual truth and will be hearing only one side, this doctor's side and MJ is no longer here able to defend himself. Unless those missing surveilance tapes can be found we only have the guilty party's statement to go by and personally I wouldn't believe a darn thing this quack says.

In addition, no surgery I have ever attended has the surgeon administered the medication. That is done by an Anesthesiologist.

Assisted suicide.

For heaven's sake trailergurl, MJ didn't want suicide. He loved his children more than anything in the world and there is no way he would have wanted to die. He wanted to be with his children and watch them grow up. What an idiotic statement.

According to you, but millions of others do consider this news important.

Then go to U.S. NEWS > MILITARY and take your choice on which topic there you would like to comment on.

maybe its you that is ever think of that

HUH????????????????????

Amy, pray that you are not judged so harshly. I have a sneaking suspicion that about the time it comes to walking on water, you're a sinker.

So was mj!!! A sinking rock! God seen his chance and took it!!

MANY docs listen way too much to their patients and forget to practice evidence based medicine. Patients ask for miracles and expect miracles....many doctors are happy to try and give them that.

for if it can happen to Michael Jackson, it can happen to any of us.

No, I can guarantee it will NEVER happen to me. My Dr. and I discussed a pain med for me for 6 months before I would agree to go on it. I have it in writing with my pharmacist that if any new prescription comes in for me to make tripley sure I know if and what kind of things I can expect from it. See I take part in my health care and help to look out for myself. It CAN be done.

What this all comes down to is this:

Dr. Murray was a GREEDY S.O.B.!!!!!! I am NO expert on medicines and how and when they should be administered.....but I KNOW THIS (just from researchin' on the internet)......

VALIUM, LORAZEPAM, AND MIDAZOLAM......are BASICALLY the same meds......they are all for ANXIETY AND, ANXIETY DISORDERS......what is the BEST way to treat a person w/ anxiety?

Give that person medication that calms them down or that relaxes them.....

as I researched ALL of these medications....they all say BASICALLY the same thing......

1) causes shallow breathings (or respiratory depression)...same thing

2) can cause a coma (loss of consciousness)....the same thing

3)can be fatal (ya know it can kill ya.....) respiratory arrest (ya stop breathing).......

IF YOU STOP BREATHING.......THERE'S NO OXYGEN EXCHANGE......W/ NO OXYGEN EXCHANGE....THE HEART WILL DIE......(AKA CARDIAC ARREST!!)

It's a miracle that Michael (may he rest in peace) didn't die earlier than he did!!!

I understand that Michael made demands for more medications.....and that's what a person who's addicted to meds does......but he as a physician...... (with moral)......should have known when ENOUGH was ENOUGH.....and said "NO".....even if Michael decided that he'd get the meds from someone else.....atleast his "NOSE WOULD HAVE BEEN CLEAN"......but he.....(being the money hungry FOOL that he is).....put himself in this position............

WHAT A JACK A$?

I never knew dams could have babies, considering they're just walls of branches and mud.

A person who was around as many children (1,000's) as Michael.and who was a pediphile..would have more than two complaints..and those lousy 2 were proven to be false..so ..you need to do homework...the 2 were after money..well..their parents were.